He also expressed deep concern "about a revival of a forward defence policy, given our performance in Vietnam". For Carr, the shadow cast by the Iraq War was long. "Given it's 20 years since Iraq, you can hardly say our security agencies should not be questioned when they provide their assessments."
For former foreign minister, Gareth Evans, there were three questions : whether the submarines are actually fit for purpose; whether Australia retained genuine sovereignty over them in their use; and, were that not the case, "whether that loss of agency is a price worth paying for the US security insurance we think we might be buying."
Will these voices make a difference? They just might – but if so, Australia will have to thank that political pugilist and Labor veteran who, for all his faults, spoke in terms that will be considered, in a matter of years, treasonous by the Empire and its sycophants.
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